Trinamic Discussion Groups

[physie]

ich möchte das Handrad meines Messaufbaus zukünftig mit einem Schrittmotor betreiben. Was brauche ich: Schrittmotor+Steuerung+??
Der Motor soll anschließend über Labview angesteuert werden (entweder über bestehende Treiber oder seriell über ASCII-Befehle). Das Drehmoment beträgt <3Nm (muss ich nochmal genau bestimmen).
Was für ein (preisgünstiges) Konzept würdet Ihr vorschlagen.

[B. Dwersteg (TRINAMIC)]

Hallo, 3Nm wäre sehr viel. Wenn Sie tatsächlich so viel benötigen, empfiehlt sich vielleicht ein MONOpack2 und einer der 60mm QSH6018 Motoren. Bei deutlich geringerem Drehmoment (50Ncm) wäre als viel kleinere Lösung ein PANdrive PD-110-42 passend. Beide Einheiten unterstützen (optional) ASCII-Befehle.

[Andrew]

To Digi.
Parameters are not automatic. You need to set them by hand and experience.
You may buy motors, power supplies, and controllers separately from different suppliers.
You may educate yourself a bit on this forum, as decribed below. If you do not feel confident, you may ask for help from an experienced systems integrator. Maybe your local distributor is such. If not, perhaps I could help privately.

To Physie.
Torque 3Nm does not necessarily require excessive currents. All depends on requird speed, inertia, and other parameters.

We are not to select a motor for you. You are a designer of your system. So you should select one yourself. We can only advise.
The cheapest solution would be to use a TMCM110 1 axis controller with a powerful 4Nm motor. Motors made by Trinamic (PAN drive, and QMot) have lesser moment. You would need a more powerful motor from another supplier.
Yet you need to select a motor, which fits the requirement of electrical current of the mentioned cheapest controller (see below). I could help with that privately.
You can still get third party motors from "one hands". You don't have to buy all separately.

You may read a bit more about selection of motor in an article of mine here:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=263&start=15#854
(And there are more on this forum.)

For example I would mention a combination below.

1 axis - TMCM110SG-RS232
Interface: RS232
Stall Guard
Current: 1.1A (1.5A peak)
Price: 100 Euro.

Motor (quite large one):
About 60mm wide, 85mm long, and 1.5kg in weight.
Step angle: 1.8 degrees
Price approximately: 100 Euro

This is not an offer. Prices are only indicative. Each distributor has its own price. Also motors may come from different manufacturers.

3 axis controller TMCM303 is also posible for this motor. It may need additional accessories to connect to your computer. It costs about 190-250 Euro, depending on configuration.

Smaller motors of this torque are also available on the market. Some of them require greater currents than the TMCM110 or similar cheap controller can provide. Then you would have to use drivers for greater current, like TMCM035. Which, in combination with controller modules, and connecting base boards, defeat the low price offered by single board controllers.

Another solution to achieve high torque with even lesser currents than 1.1-1.5A is to use reduction gears. A geared motor, combined with a single board controller module, may be cheaper than a high current (multiple boards) solution. Standard reduction gears are available.
The shortcoming are backlash, and slow speeds.

Operation under LabView is possible both with binary and ASCII interface.
Please start reading here for introduction:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=296

In order to power your controller and the motor you may use your existing power supply. Or use this one:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=394
Also a bit here:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=11
Try to search the forum for LabView for more (but there's not much more).

You may fit the TMCM110 controller inside the casing of that power supply, and perhaps of most others. The circuit board of TMCM110 is only 42 by 42 mm in size.
You can also mount this controller onto the body of a motor.
_________________
Distributor of Trinamic
Our TMCM-DLL is here (not free): http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=30 | Power supplies: http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=394
On request: System integration services, custom programming, mechanics,etc

[physie]

Ok, ich hab jetzt nachgemessen. Es sind 1,5Nm. Etwas Reserve sollte auch noch einkalkuliert werden.
Labview-Ansteuerung ist also möglich - Klasse. Kann ich an die Schrittmotor-Steuerung TMCM110 auch andere beliebige Schrittmotoren dranhängen? Was müssen diese erfüllen?

[B. Dwersteg (TRINAMIC)]

Das TMCM-110 kann max. 1,1A RMS treiben - es passt nicht zu unseren 57mm und 60mm Motoren. Für einen QMOT 60XX mit 2,8A Nennstrom benötigen Sie mindestens das TMCM-111-42 oder ein Monopack2. Ich empfehle den größten QMOT6018, da eine gewisse Überdimensionierung bei Schrittmotoren sinnvoll ist, da es sich um ein Open-Loop-System handelt.

[Andrew]

Bernhard, I think you mistook 1.5Nm for 1.5A.
I think you will easily find a motor of 42mm in size with this torque.

Even if it were 1.5A, you don't have to drive a 1.5A motor necessarily with 1.5A. You can select a smaller controller. Then test and see if you can use it. Only afterwards you decide if you need something bigger.

Motors with 1.5Nm cost about 50-100 Euro. You need to consult the list of motors from Trinamic, and other manufacturers for the required torque. Try to find a motor with currents that match TMCM110 - namely: 1.1A. Then you have the cheapest system.

Alternatively you may use boxed systems, like Monopack. They are more expensive. However they povide a casing, and a stronger current.
I would suggest a module or system with TMCL propgraming language. Or any similar language of higher level than that for TMC428 chip.

[Andrew]

A similar answer can be given to a question about seemingly different hardware:
about microchips from Trinamic, and users designing their own circuit boards.

First you may try to use an existing item of lower rating, perhaps bigger in size. You must base your selection on required torque, and speed, rather on current or voltage alone.
It may turn out, that actually you can select a suitable hardware, it does exist. You don't have to choose a unconvenient pile of boards, or chips.
Motors of different ratings do exist. You may select one to the rating of the cheaper controller board.

Before any design you may want to prototype your system. The prototype can be based on a standard module. - Not even of the rating which you eventually choose.
I write about this below.

Below is my reply to this, and to some other dreams to build custom circuit boards.

Circuit boards from Trinamic are cheap only as long they are self-contained.
For increased specifications you need several boards, and each costs as much as 1 does. Making for a 600 Euro, or more.
The answer is not to design your own board.
The answer is still to try to use what is readily avalable.
You might design your own boards only if you plan mass production.

So I suggest TMCM035 drivers with TMC301 or TMC302 and BB301 or BB302.
I make similar suggestion in this topic above.

The essence here is that high torque can be achieved with currents lower than 2A.
Just an appropriate motor has to be selected. Speeds too...

Then the price of controllers is much less, as I write here:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=687&highlight=tmcm035
The complete 5A set with TMCM301/302+BB301/302+TMCM035 might cost about 600Euro.
While a 1.5A controller with integrated drivers costs only about 200 Euro.
I of course can give a good price... Especially on greater quantities. But the difference is still great.

By the way, some considerations about power supply and TMCM035 are here:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=679&highlight=tmcm035

A few insights on baseboards for TMCM035 are here:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=272&highlight=tmcm035
And even more here:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=211&highlight=tmcm035

Currents with TMCM035:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=223&highlight=tmcm035
If very smooth microstepping is important, analogue input can be used, as opposed to SPI or Step/Dir. It allow more resolution.

By the way, beginning from year 2006 the TMCM035 provides a microstep rate of 64x via digital SPI:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=56

I would suggest you use TMC035 drivers
with TMC301 or TMC302 and BB301 or BB302.

This would be a good start for prototyping. You don't have to design anything.
Just buy a controller, a baseboard, and 3 drivers. Also buy motors (I can supply), and a power supply (build yourself, or ask from me).

When done with prototyping, you may decide whether you proceed with your project, or abandon it (this is also possible). If you abandon the project, you might hope to sell some equipment back, or sell it to someone else. That's because all the boards are standard.

In case of success, you may decide that you stick with the standard boards.

The modules are based on the chips TMC428, and TMC246/249. You may learn the chips gradually by experience, when prototyping.

Then, if you decide to design your own boards, you do it more easily. You may even do development concurrently with selling your system, based on standard boards - the prototype.
So, you start gaining revenue immediately, rather than in 1 year, which would be the case with microchips.

If you do design your own board with TMC428, you might use a microprocessor with TMCL from Trinamic.
I can arrange the microprocessors for you.
It would have a TMCL FirmWare installed.
Earlier Trinamic was willing to provide such processors separately.
One costs about 20 Euro, if I remember well.

TMCL has a few bugs. But Trinamic constantly improves it.

If you get an AVR microprocessor with TMCL FirmWare, you save a lot of time on development.
Then you can use my TMCM-DLL software for computer. It is described here:
http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=30
And again you save on development.
I bundle the software for regular customers.
_________________
Distributor of Trinamic
Our TMCM-DLL is here (not free): http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=30 | Power supplies: http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=394
On request: System integration services, custom programming, mechanics,etc

[stewi]

Ich komme etwas verspätet zu dieser Anfrage dazu.
Sie benötigen zwar ein recht grosses Drehmoment aber sie teilen uns nicht mit, in welcher Zeit dieses Handrad gedreht werden soll.
Mit einer Getriebeuntersetzung von z.B. 1:4 wird das Drehmoment um ungefähr 3.5 mal erhöht. Der Rest geht mit Reibungsverlusten flöten.
Bei der Getriebeuntersetzung wird übrigens auch die Schrittauflösung genauer (vorausgesetzt wir haben so gut wie kein Spiel im Getriebe). Ohne Getriebe haben sie 200 Schritte im Vollschrittbetrieb. Bei 1:4 Untersetzung macht der Motor 4 mal mehr Umdrehungen als am Handrad.
Schrittmotore sind allerdings keine Rennmotore. Ich gehe normalerweise nicht über 400 Schritte pro Sekunde hinaus. Das sind 2 Umdrehungen pro Sekunde oder bei 1:4 Untersetzung 1/2 Umdrehung pro Sekunde.

[Andrew]

Excuse me... Stewi.
Is there any question in you post?
I find nothing to answer.

Perhaps you simply provided extra information for someone... But I barely see why and to whom...

In any case I would like it in English, please.

[stewi]

Now you confuse me a bit. The thread started with a question from physie. Why should I respond with another question? Why should I respond in English, when the question was asked in German?
Since physie described an experimental set up, I do assume it doesn't require much of sophistication rather than being very cost effective. We also know, that 3 Nm is a static value and not a dynamic value. Ergo, we can turn this wheel with the smallest and cheapest tin can motor we can find on the market, if it is been geared down appropiately. It just takes a little bit more time.
However, I don't need this forum, which apparently became your forum and will refrain from it for the future.
Regards,
Stefan

[Andrew]

The confusion is from the fact that I was expecting a question. I thought you have some problem, which you wanted to ask about.

If you were giving an explanation to Physie, then perhaps you should have indicated that clearly. I do not understand German. This has added to confusion.

I think Physie, like you, no longer needs this forum.
So she, or he will miss on your reply.

But you did need this forum earlier.
On the other thread, which I made a link from here, you already received some advice from me and Bernhard. If that's enough for you, then it is only natural that you no longer need this forum. Then the forum is a success, regardles of whom you think it belongs to.

However it is good that you give, and not only take. Perhaps you might want to give some advice on this forum occasionally in the furute.
I think the comment, which you made is quite useful. The only thing, which I had doubt about, was that it essentially tells a user the same thing, which I told.
However, it is in other words, from another point of view, in another articulation. And I do appreciate that.


If you do not come back, then you only confirm the selfish nature of mankind, which I explained in the post, which you mistook for me yelling.

By the way, you are not right. Do not be jealous. This is far from my forum. Look at the staff from Trinamic (Olav, Bernhard, and others). I have written only about 280 articles. They - perhaps a 1000.

Write 280 articles yourself, and it will become our common forum.
Or keep selfishly out... Then it will remain what it is.

If you still complain about my supposed yelling, then you yourself acknowledged that I was right.
Is it right to complain about tight things?

To be moved to the thread on rants
_________________
Distributor of Trinamic
Our TMCM-DLL is here (not free): http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=30 | Power supplies: http://www.trinamic.com/ttdg/viewtopic.php?t=394
On request: System integration services, custom programming, mechanics,etc